Howto? Migrating from Siemens HiPath4000 to FreeSWITCH
Hi FS-List, maybe there are some experts in here, that can help me to get some things clear. I'm working for an institution with about 500 extensions. At the moment there is a Siemens HiPath4000 used. It is an old version of the Software, we are using (3.x). We are paying a lot of money for that solution(rental fee/leasing), so I'm planning to move to another option. The building is an old monestary and the infrastructure (e.g. cables) is very old. So we are planning to get the Infrastructure up to cat7 cables. On the one hand, because we need to get most parts of the building online (internet for guests and conferences) and on the other hand it makes no sense to keep a 70-80 years old cabeling up. So with this in mind VoIP would be a good option.... To bring the cabeling up to date, we're planning to do it part by part. It's not a realistic option to get this done in a short time. The building is a very large one, so this has to be done in maybe 3-5 years... We are using a Telekom PRI/E1 (german Telekom). So my plan is: Setting up a FreeSWITCH server with 2 PRI cards (e.g. Sangoma A101D), one card connecting to the PRI of Telekom and the other card connecting to the HiPath4000. In this way I hope to get the calls connected through FreeSWITCH to the HiPath4000 and I can start getting ip-phones connected, where cat7-cables are available. In this way I have some advantages: - I can handle a smooth change to VoIP (don't have to have a hard cut) - I first can integrate open-minded people to the VoIP-technologie, so they can test and give feedback, what they like, and what they wanna have better... Older or not so open-minded people (we have some really old monks and padres) would then benfit from a tested environment. The switches are planed to have QoS and PoE. As phones I'm planning to use Snom-phones. (Snom300 and Snom320) Further I'd like to build a failover system, with a second server. Another option would have been to upgrade the HiPath to VoIP, but the costs for that are in no relation to what a FreeSWITCH System would cost... My experience with FreeSWITCH is limited to quite small enviroments and I never tried it with PRI (always using "normal" ISDN base, Sangoma a500...) My experience with HiPath4000 is limited to the available webfrontend. The "internal configuration" is done by the provider of that system. My experience with Linux and networksystems is about 12 years in small an large systems... In two years the HiPath is "payed" and it's ours. So we can use this system with no costs and have full access. My questions: - Do you think this is an good way to get it running? - Maybe someone with some experience in HiPath knows, whether it's complicated, to get the HiPath configured (getting extension-blocks handled by FreeSWITCH and on the other side keep other extensions on the HiPath)? - Is the routing with this 2 PRI-cards construct possible, or better easy done? - Is there a way to simulate a PRI-Provider. I.e. if I'm buying two PRI-cards I maybe could configure two test-boxes, each having one card. Connecting these two I maybe can play around with these PRI connections (just to get a feeling for it...)? - Do you have some hints, what to consider, if I'm doing this? I'm planning this for quite a while, and im thinking a lot about this, but I always have the feeling of forgetting some essential things and the whole construct blows up, if im starting it. This would be not very optimal ;) - Maybe someone has some hints, in which order to plan this setup. The plans become more and more concrete and I'm not sure, like said before, whether I'm doing and thinking things in right order. - Just a technical detail: the HiPath is in a room, that is not optimal for this kind of it-systems (aircondition, accessible for everybody). But the patchpanels are in that room (the old ones, old cables, 2 poles for HiPath-Protocol, parts of it with 4 poles for ISDN). And the PRI-connection to the Telekom is in this room. Would it be possible to place the servers in another room and get the PRI there? Would the cable-length be a problem (I think about 50 meters)? And for the failover system it would be optimal to have the system in another part of the building (in case of fire another place is better). There it would be nice to "patch" the PRI to another place... - As the building is very large, we have some fibrechanel connections to get the long distances bridged. To keep QoS up: Do I have to have special converters? (I don't think so, cause the switches should do that, but maybe I'm wrong). - Cascading switches (Phone -> Switch -> Fibre -> Switch -> Server): Does every switch have to do QoS, or would the first switch be enough. Or the other way around, would cascaded switches make problems, if both have QoS configuration...? Sorry for this very long post and so many questions.... Kind regards Uli
Hi Uli 1. The HP4k will always be ISDN slave - so on the FS side, you'll need to be the timing source i.e. pretend to be the telco from that ISDN port - it should simply be one signalling setting - I'm not familiar with FS ISDN stuff. On the other port, the German ISDN provider will no doubt be the timing source. 2. Depending on your indial configuration, but it sounds like you have a good plan. Setting up FS in front of the HP4k so that those areas that are cabled first can be handled by FS/IP-phones, whilst those that are not can be routed to HP4k. This is good. 3. Your experience with linux is handy - security is important. Keep your phones on a separate (V)LAN to mitigate risks. 4. Get hardware echo cancellation on the ISDN card, don't try and save $500 by leaving this out - it will be the first thing users complain about if you forego. 5. The management of your HP4k is costly and cumbersome, with FS or any other F/OSS system, you have a multitude of choices. Not sure about your QoS ethernet -> fibre -> ethernet query due to lack of experience. Similarly for ISDN cabling distances, but 50m should not be a problem. I'm sure there are settings to warn the card/software of how far you are from your next "hop". Sounds like a really good project! Good luck! Chris On 10/05/2012, at 3:50 PM, NeCoSec - Ulrich Schinz wrote:
Hi FS-List,
maybe there are some experts in here, that can help me to get some things clear.
I'm working for an institution with about 500 extensions. At the moment there is a Siemens HiPath4000 used. It is an old version of the Software, we are using (3.x). We are paying a lot of money for that solution(rental fee/leasing), so I'm planning to move to another option.
The building is an old monestary and the infrastructure (e.g. cables) is very old. So we are planning to get the Infrastructure up to cat7 cables. On the one hand, because we need to get most parts of the building online (internet for guests and conferences) and on the other hand it makes no sense to keep a 70-80 years old cabeling up. So with this in mind VoIP would be a good option....
To bring the cabeling up to date, we're planning to do it part by part. It's not a realistic option to get this done in a short time. The building is a very large one, so this has to be done in maybe 3-5 years...
We are using a Telekom PRI/E1 (german Telekom).
So my plan is: Setting up a FreeSWITCH server with 2 PRI cards (e.g. Sangoma A101D), one card connecting to the PRI of Telekom and the other card connecting to the HiPath4000. In this way I hope to get the calls connected through FreeSWITCH to the HiPath4000 and I can start getting ip-phones connected, where cat7-cables are available. In this way I have some advantages: - I can handle a smooth change to VoIP (don't have to have a hard cut) - I first can integrate open-minded people to the VoIP-technologie, so they can test and give feedback, what they like, and what they wanna have better... Older or not so open-minded people (we have some really old monks and padres) would then benfit from a tested environment.
The switches are planed to have QoS and PoE.
As phones I'm planning to use Snom-phones. (Snom300 and Snom320)
Further I'd like to build a failover system, with a second server.
Another option would have been to upgrade the HiPath to VoIP, but the costs for that are in no relation to what a FreeSWITCH System would cost...
My experience with FreeSWITCH is limited to quite small enviroments and I never tried it with PRI (always using "normal" ISDN base, Sangoma a500...) My experience with HiPath4000 is limited to the available webfrontend. The "internal configuration" is done by the provider of that system. My experience with Linux and networksystems is about 12 years in small an large systems...
In two years the HiPath is "payed" and it's ours. So we can use this system with no costs and have full access.
My questions:
- Do you think this is an good way to get it running?
- Maybe someone with some experience in HiPath knows, whether it's complicated, to get the HiPath configured (getting extension-blocks handled by FreeSWITCH and on the other side keep other extensions on the HiPath)?
- Is the routing with this 2 PRI-cards construct possible, or better easy done?
- Is there a way to simulate a PRI-Provider. I.e. if I'm buying two PRI-cards I maybe could configure two test-boxes, each having one card. Connecting these two I maybe can play around with these PRI connections (just to get a feeling for it...)?
- Do you have some hints, what to consider, if I'm doing this? I'm planning this for quite a while, and im thinking a lot about this, but I always have the feeling of forgetting some essential things and the whole construct blows up, if im starting it. This would be not very optimal ;)
- Maybe someone has some hints, in which order to plan this setup. The plans become more and more concrete and I'm not sure, like said before, whether I'm doing and thinking things in right order.
- Just a technical detail: the HiPath is in a room, that is not optimal for this kind of it-systems (aircondition, accessible for everybody). But the patchpanels are in that room (the old ones, old cables, 2 poles for HiPath-Protocol, parts of it with 4 poles for ISDN). And the PRI-connection to the Telekom is in this room. Would it be possible to place the servers in another room and get the PRI there? Would the cable-length be a problem (I think about 50 meters)? And for the failover system it would be optimal to have the system in another part of the building (in case of fire another place is better). There it would be nice to "patch" the PRI to another place...
- As the building is very large, we have some fibrechanel connections to get the long distances bridged. To keep QoS up: Do I have to have special converters? (I don't think so, cause the switches should do that, but maybe I'm wrong).
- Cascading switches (Phone -> Switch -> Fibre -> Switch -> Server): Does every switch have to do QoS, or would the first switch be enough. Or the other way around, would cascaded switches make problems, if both have QoS configuration...?
Sorry for this very long post and so many questions....
Kind regards Uli
_________________________________________________________________________ Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services: consulting@freeswitch.org http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
FreeSWITCH-powered IP PBX: The CudaTel Communication Server http://www.cudatel.com
Official FreeSWITCH Sites http://www.freeswitch.org http://wiki.freeswitch.org http://www.cluecon.com
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Hi Uli, yes of course you can configure Sangoma PRI Cards in NT Mode. Sangoma calls that CPE (TE) or NET (NT) Mode. Take a look at <http://wiki.sangoma.com/wanpipe-freeswitch-config-freetdm-isdn> Btw. you can also buy an A102d with two PRI Ports. The "d" stands for echo-chancelation. Or you get an Mediagateway like the Patton Inalp SmartNode 4960. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen *Karsten Horsmann*
Hi, On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Karsten Horsmann <khorsmann@gmail.com> wrote:
Btw. you can also buy an A102d with two PRI Ports. The "d" stands for echo-chancelation.
Or you get an Mediagateway like the Patton Inalp SmartNode 4960.
I would also recommend to use a SmartNode or PRI board with two ports. This way you can sync the internal (HiPath facing) port to the external (Telekom) port, which will help avoid all kinds of timing trouble. Some single port boards have proprietary interconnects to sync multiple boards of the same vendor, but by buying one card / gateway with two PRIs you can skip the complexity. Using a standalone mediagateway like the Patton also makes it possible to put your server wherever you like and not worry about cabling the PRIs to the rack. You can route calls to multiple servers (e.g. send calls to server2 if server1 is down etc.) and don't depend on the FreeSWITCH machines to be up and running for the HiPath to work. We're using this kind of migration setup quite often, starting with a "transparent" SmartNode looped in between PRI and "old" PBX, then gradually routing numbers to the SIP world. Gruß, Markus
Hi List, The only thing against an external device is that they can become EOL - i.e. SIP stack does not get further updates. Take a Linksys SPA400 for example (4 port FXO). This has now been superseeded by a Cisco 8800 (4xFXO + 4xFXS) An internal card may get longer software updates. Network security for the external device nearly makes this a null point. If the server that has the card dies, then it's a PITA to move the card to the back up box. Unless you have the backup box with an ISDN card as well. There are devices that do automatic switching on failure (I believe Xorcom had one that runs off USB). That's something that is often overlooked. I would go the external device because of convenience - and if the EOL thing is a problem, buy another one in 5 years or whenever. My 2 cents, CM On 10/05/2012, at 5:26 PM, Markus Lindenberg wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Karsten Horsmann <khorsmann@gmail.com> wrote:
Btw. you can also buy an A102d with two PRI Ports. The "d" stands for echo-chancelation.
Or you get an Mediagateway like the Patton Inalp SmartNode 4960.
I would also recommend to use a SmartNode or PRI board with two ports. This way you can sync the internal (HiPath facing) port to the external (Telekom) port, which will help avoid all kinds of timing trouble. Some single port boards have proprietary interconnects to sync multiple boards of the same vendor, but by buying one card / gateway with two PRIs you can skip the complexity.
Using a standalone mediagateway like the Patton also makes it possible to put your server wherever you like and not worry about cabling the PRIs to the rack. You can route calls to multiple servers (e.g. send calls to server2 if server1 is down etc.) and don't depend on the FreeSWITCH machines to be up and running for the HiPath to work.
We're using this kind of migration setup quite often, starting with a "transparent" SmartNode looped in between PRI and "old" PBX, then gradually routing numbers to the SIP world.
Gruß, Markus
_________________________________________________________________________ Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services: consulting@freeswitch.org http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
FreeSWITCH-powered IP PBX: The CudaTel Communication Server http://www.cudatel.com
Official FreeSWITCH Sites http://www.freeswitch.org http://wiki.freeswitch.org http://www.cluecon.com
FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
Hi Chris, same here, convenience wins. I love the fact that the complete SmartNode configuration can be backed up as one readable configuration file. firmware up/downgrades and configuration backups are a matter of minutes and can always be safely rolled back or transferred. This is in contrast to Dialogic Diva BRI/PRI cards, which are pretty awesome but rely on a mess of packages, daemons and kernel modules compiled in place on the target system for the target kernel. So by just updating your server you could possibly break stuff and you also have to make sure that your OS is supported. Then there's things like the beroFix (never used them) which are self contained SIP/ISDN gateways on a PCI card. By buying "enterprise", you can migitate the possibility of your gateway/card going EOL. That's why Audiocodes' gateways are expensive compared to Linksys stuff. SmartNode development has always been active even for existing devices, i'm just a bit worried that there's no IPv6 support available or announced. On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Chris Mylonas <chris@opencsta.org> wrote:
Hi List,
The only thing against an external device is that they can become EOL - i.e. SIP stack does not get further updates. Take a Linksys SPA400 for example (4 port FXO). This has now been superseeded by a Cisco 8800 (4xFXO + 4xFXS) An internal card may get longer software updates. Network security for the external device nearly makes this a null point.
If the server that has the card dies, then it's a PITA to move the card to the back up box. Unless you have the backup box with an ISDN card as well. There are devices that do automatic switching on failure (I believe Xorcom had one that runs off USB).
That's something that is often overlooked. I would go the external device because of convenience - and if the EOL thing is a problem, buy another one in 5 years or whenever.
My 2 cents, CM
On 10/05/2012, at 5:26 PM, Markus Lindenberg wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Karsten Horsmann <khorsmann@gmail.com> wrote:
Btw. you can also buy an A102d with two PRI Ports. The "d" stands for echo-chancelation.
Or you get an Mediagateway like the Patton Inalp SmartNode 4960.
I would also recommend to use a SmartNode or PRI board with two ports. This way you can sync the internal (HiPath facing) port to the external (Telekom) port, which will help avoid all kinds of timing trouble. Some single port boards have proprietary interconnects to sync multiple boards of the same vendor, but by buying one card / gateway with two PRIs you can skip the complexity.
Using a standalone mediagateway like the Patton also makes it possible to put your server wherever you like and not worry about cabling the PRIs to the rack. You can route calls to multiple servers (e.g. send calls to server2 if server1 is down etc.) and don't depend on the FreeSWITCH machines to be up and running for the HiPath to work.
We're using this kind of migration setup quite often, starting with a "transparent" SmartNode looped in between PRI and "old" PBX, then gradually routing numbers to the SIP world.
Gruß, Markus
_________________________________________________________________________ Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services: consulting@freeswitch.org http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
FreeSWITCH-powered IP PBX: The CudaTel Communication Server http://www.cudatel.com
Official FreeSWITCH Sites http://www.freeswitch.org http://wiki.freeswitch.org http://www.cluecon.com
FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
_________________________________________________________________________ Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services: consulting@freeswitch.org http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
FreeSWITCH-powered IP PBX: The CudaTel Communication Server http://www.cudatel.com
Official FreeSWITCH Sites http://www.freeswitch.org http://wiki.freeswitch.org http://www.cluecon.com
FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
On 10-05-12 10:44, Markus Lindenberg wrote: [snip]
This is in contrast to Dialogic Diva BRI/PRI cards, which are pretty awesome but rely on a mess of packages, daemons and kernel modules compiled in place on the target system for the target kernel. So by just updating your server you could possibly break stuff and you also have to make sure that your OS is supported.
I agree that the Dialogic Diva cards are great. I've been using them for many years and they have always worked flawlessly. Like the Sangoma cards I might add. Afaik there is no channel driver for Diva cards in FreeSWITCH (Dialogic: create one!) so in relation to FreeSWITCH it would unfortunately not be an option. There is chan_capi in the Asterisk world which works great. Regarding the possibility of breaking stuff: Diva software works fine on both RHEL6 and CentOS6. What else do you need in the Enterprise? :) All Diva software is located in /usr/lib/eicon (also on 64bit...) and in my experience the kernel modules work fine on newer kernels due to ABI compatibility. I have never seen things break on target systems because if you create an RPM then the Diva software can easily be installed, updated or removed. I only install the bare minimum (scripts and firmware and an init script) so no daemons or multiple packages and the kernel modules are RPM packaged on a separate build system using the proper way instead of through some 10,000 line kitchen sink build script that requires to be run as root. If you don't want to worry about all the moving parts then a Smartnode, Audiocodes, BeroNet or Redfone box are definitely options to look at. Regards, Patrick
Hi Patrick, On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Patrick Lists <freeswitch-list@puzzled.xs4all.nl> wrote:
I agree that the Dialogic Diva cards are great. I've been using them for many years and they have always worked flawlessly. Like the Sangoma cards I might add. Afaik there is no channel driver for Diva cards in FreeSWITCH (Dialogic: create one!) so in relation to FreeSWITCH it would unfortunately not be an option. There is chan_capi in the Asterisk world which works great.
There is one option: Diva SIPcontrol turns the Diva cards into a Mediagateway with SIP-Interface. Works great and is easy to set up. Afaik a two channel license suitable for a single BRI can be used free of charge. http://www.dialogic.com/Products/gateways/enterprise-media-gateways/sipcontr...
Ulrich, I work with a Brazilian company called Khomp. They have been replacing Dialogic cards on their traditional market for many years now and Dialogic barely exists in Brazil because of them. A few years ago, they've ported their product line to work with Asterisk and now they also support FreeSWITCH. The main advantage of this product (as well as Dialogic) is that all protocols are implemented on the hardware and therefore if something does not work on the protocol level, it will be fixed by the factory. Khomp in Brazil is known by their fast response technical support (you can't expect to have Dialogic traditional developers if you don't whereas the FreeSWITCH/Asterisk market is more tolerant). The other side effect and something that you are most certainly not considering is that you will need something more advanced then just PRI emulated as carrier (sending clock) to your Siemens. To depict that, let's imagine a scenario. Alice calls Bob from a Siemens based phone to a FreeSWITCH extension (at this instance, you have 1 channel occupied on the PRI). Bob decides that this calls is to Robert, who uses a Siemens phone and transfers that call. At this point, you will be using 2 channels of the PRI and if this scenario is common, you'll end up with a channel shortage for the other PSTN calls and such. The way to solve this, is to use a modified ISDN version supported by the Siemens called QSIG. QSIG allows you to execute a certain transfer and free the channels, leaving the call handled by the Siemens alone since FS has nothing to do with it anymore. Khomp does support this protocol and it is widely tested with Siemens since we do sell a lot of cards to Siemens system integrators around the world for their dialers, ivrs and whatnot. If you are interested, let me know. I don't know if Sangoma has a solution for that and I am not trying to make you buy us instead of them, but I would like to warn you of that as well. For those who like the external device, Khomp has a new "TDMoE" like interface that is called EBS (External Board Series). Since TDMoE does not scale well, they have implemented their own protocol of control called CTIoIP. It is quite interesting and it scales REALLY well with FreeSWITCH (I have personally tried). Just my 2 cents. Regards, -- João Mesquita Sent with Sparrow (http://www.sparrowmailapp.com/?sig) On Thursday, May 10, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Markus Lindenberg wrote:
Hi Patrick,
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Patrick Lists <freeswitch-list@puzzled.xs4all.nl (mailto:freeswitch-list@puzzled.xs4all.nl)> wrote:
I agree that the Dialogic Diva cards are great. I've been using them for many years and they have always worked flawlessly. Like the Sangoma cards I might add. Afaik there is no channel driver for Diva cards in FreeSWITCH (Dialogic: create one!) so in relation to FreeSWITCH it would unfortunately not be an option. There is chan_capi in the Asterisk world which works great.
There is one option: Diva SIPcontrol turns the Diva cards into a Mediagateway with SIP-Interface. Works great and is easy to set up. Afaik a two channel license suitable for a single BRI can be used free of charge.
http://www.dialogic.com/Products/gateways/enterprise-media-gateways/sipcontr...
_________________________________________________________________________ Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services: consulting@freeswitch.org (mailto:consulting@freeswitch.org) http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
FreeSWITCH-powered IP PBX: The CudaTel Communication Server http://www.cudatel.com
Official FreeSWITCH Sites http://www.freeswitch.org http://wiki.freeswitch.org http://www.cluecon.com
FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org (mailto:FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org) http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
Hi Markus, On 10-05-12 12:53, Markus Lindenberg wrote: [snip]
There is one option: Diva SIPcontrol turns the Diva cards into a Mediagateway with SIP-Interface. Works great and is easy to set up. Afaik a two channel license suitable for a single BRI can be used free of charge.
http://www.dialogic.com/Products/gateways/enterprise-media-gateways/sipcontr...
Thanks for the tip! I had to do some digging but I think SIPcontrol is part of the Diva4Linux_installer archive. So it seems I can no longer avoid using that rather "creative" way of installing their stuff :) Thanks again, Patrick
participants (6)
-
Chris Mylonas
-
João Mesquita
-
Karsten Horsmann
-
Markus Lindenberg
-
NeCoSec - Ulrich Schinz
-
Patrick Lists