Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum?
"So, I'm in favour of a Web interface but strongly against anything that wouldn't also allow mailing list participation or offer NNTP access. That is, I'm in favour of diversity and opposed to excluding people by forcing everyone to use a single user interface - one provided by forum software." So forum software with a "Subscribe to all by email" option and/or similar RSS feed? Would that cover all the bases? Regards, Ben Langfeld Wave > Email On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:31 AM, < freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? (Ben Langfeld) 2. Big conferences (David Knell) 3. Re: FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? (Jason White) 4. Re: FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? (Madovsky) 5. Re: FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? (Wellie Chao)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:44:02 +0000 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
I'm convinced that a full shift to newer, better organised and more friendly technology would only be a good thing for the FreeSWITCH project. Does anyone agree, or am I out on my own on this one?
Regards, Ben Langfeld
Wave > Email
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:11 AM, < freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org> To: "freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org" < freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:54:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There *IS* a forum. A volunteer set it up a few years ago and promised to maintain it. The fact that you can't find it is proof positive that a forum just isn't the best choice for this particular online community. I'd say the nabble site is your best option.
-MC
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:51 AM, William Suffill <william.suffill@gmail.com> wrote:
It's been brought up before. I don't recall exactly all the +/- discussed but there are some alternatives for the user depending on their preference. Digest can get a bit annoying in high volume. The list is archived in various places (Gmane.org, <http://nabble.com>nabble.com)
Nabble does provide a forum style interface to the current list if you rather follow it that way. <http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html> http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html "This forum is an archive for the mailing list: *<freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org* (more options<http://n2.nabble.com/mailing_list/MailingListOptions.jtp?forum=2379917>) Messages posted here will be sent to this mailing list."
-- W
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---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Knell <dave@3c.co.uk> To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:50:51 -0600 Subject: [Freeswitch-users] Big conferences Hi -
I've seen the odd query on the list about building and scaling large audio conferences. Given that most callers will be listen-only, it's possible to scale up by transmitting a single RTP stream to multiple callers.
Here's some proof-of-concept code, which roughly halves the CPU usage for a 200-user (plus one speaker) conference, written in that highest of performance languages, Perl: http://www.softivr.com/wiki/index.php/HP_Conferencing
--Dave
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:13:59 +1100 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> wrote:
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
Experienced users of mailing lists don't use digest mode. They filter the mailing list into its own mail folder and use features of their mail user agent to read it efficiently, e.g., threaded display.
I support to the existence of a Web interface to the mailing list, but I would strongly object to any attempt to replace the list with a "Web forum", for a number of reasons. In particular, if this were to happen, I know that I would find it difficult to participate, perhaps impossible.
With a mailing list, I have a choice of software with which to read it, and I have chosen carefully based on my accessibility needs and personal preferences so that I can read and interact with mail efficiently. The problem with a Web forum is that I have no choice: I would have to use a Web-based interface to read and post messages, moreover, a Web interface provided by the forum itself. Unfortunately, Web interfaces can't match my customized mail environment for productivity; some of them are highly inaccessible to people with disabilities, and they don't offer the flexibility of choosing and customizing one's own client software that mailing lists and NNTP newsgroups provide. Web fora are slow and difficult for me to use, at best, and impossible at worst, and I doubt that I am alone here.
So, I'm in favour of a Web interface but strongly against anything that wouldn't also allow mailing list participation or offer NNTP access. That is, I'm in favour of diversity and opposed to excluding people by forcing everyone to use a single user interface - one provided by forum software.
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Madovsky" <infos@madovsky.org> To: <freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:15:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? I agree, but after 2 months iregistered I must to confess that I really like this kind of anarchy. It helps newbies to go quickly in the mood, elite to work their human feels and sometimes fresh energy and ideas can also help the old elite to push some intensity...
Regards
----- Original Message ----- *From:* Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> *To:* freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org *Sent:* Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:44 PM *Subject:* Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum?
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
I'm convinced that a full shift to newer, better organised and more friendly technology would only be a good thing for the FreeSWITCH project. Does anyone agree, or am I out on my own on this one?
Regards, Ben Langfeld
Wave > Email
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:11 AM, < freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org> To: "freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org" < freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:54:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There *IS* a forum. A volunteer set it up a few years ago and promised to maintain it. The fact that you can't find it is proof positive that a forum just isn't the best choice for this particular online community. I'd say the nabble site is your best option.
-MC
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:51 AM, William Suffill <william.suffill@gmail.com> wrote:
It's been brought up before. I don't recall exactly all the +/- discussed but there are some alternatives for the user depending on their preference. Digest can get a bit annoying in high volume. The list is archived in various places (Gmane.org, <http://nabble.com>nabble.com)
Nabble does provide a forum style interface to the current list if you rather follow it that way. <http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html> http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html "This forum is an archive for the mailing list: *<freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org* (more options<http://n2.nabble.com/mailing_list/MailingListOptions.jtp?forum=2379917>) Messages posted here will be sent to this mailing list."
-- W
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------------------------------
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---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Wellie Chao <wchao@yahoo.com> To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:30:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? I agree pretty strongly with Jason's viewpoint, and for the very same reasons. Not against a web forum, but other options (such as web forum) ought to be additional as opposed to in place of. Mailing lists might be "showing their age", but that's because they work. Procmail + Alpine works great, or an NNTP client is also perfectly fine. For people who want web access, there are web interfaces (like Nabble).
------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:13:59 +1100 From: Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> Reply-To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum?
Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> wrote:
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
Experienced users of mailing lists don't use digest mode. They filter the mailing list into its own mail folder and use features of their mail user agent to read it efficiently, e.g., threaded display.
I support to the existence of a Web interface to the mailing list, but I would strongly object to any attempt to replace the list with a "Web forum", for a number of reasons. In particular, if this were to happen, I know that I would find it difficult to participate, perhaps impossible.
With a mailing list, I have a choice of software with which to read it, and I have chosen carefully based on my accessibility needs and personal preferences so that I can read and interact with mail efficiently. The problem with a Web forum is that I have no choice: I would have to use a Web-based interface to read and post messages, moreover, a Web interface provided by the forum itself. Unfortunately, Web interfaces can't match my customized mail environment for productivity; some of them are highly inaccessible to people with disabilities, and they don't offer the flexibility of choosing and customizing one's own client software that mailing lists and NNTP newsgroups provide. Web fora are slow and difficult for me to use, at best, and impossible at worst, and I doubt that I am alone here.
So, I'm in favour of a Web interface but strongly against anything that wouldn't also allow mailing list participation or offer NNTP access. That is, I'm in favour of diversity and opposed to excluding people by forcing everyone to use a single user interface - one provided by forum software.
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Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> wrote:
So forum software with a "Subscribe to all by email" option and/or similar RSS feed? Would that cover all the bases?
No, not necessarily. An RSS feed wouldn't be enough; you can't use an RSS client to post content, so it would have to be e-mail or NNTP to give users choice of client, which is what I'm insisting on. For e-mail support, it would have to handle the in-reply-to and references headers properly to enable threading. At this point we're talking about exactly what we have now: a mailing list that can also be accessed on the Web. If you want NNTP access, this is also available - see http://www.gmane.org/ or just refer your favourite NNTP news reader to news.gmane.org and you'll find that you can read and (probably) post to this list over NNTP too. So my point is: we already have enough to satisfy everybody's preferences - you can read and post via the Web, via e-mail or a newsgroup - we're not excluding anybody on the basis of their needs and preferences regarding how to participate - so the conclusion is that we should leave the mailing list in place. If you think there are shortcomings in the current Web interfaces then I'm sure it would be possible to add another on top of the existing mailing list setup.
"If you think there are shortcomings in the current Web interfaces then I'm sure it would be possible to add another on top of the existing mailing list setup." Ok, so Nabble is a reasonable attempt but it still suffers from quoting issues and a failure to strip off all of the rubbish mailman footers on every post. It doesn't exactly scream minimalist and simple (DHH would have a fit) and that's my issue. For now, though, it will have to do. Could we at least make a modification to the FreeSWITCH site to make people aware that these alternatives exist though? Having them hidden at crazy URLs isn't helping anyone. Nabble is supposedly embeddable - can we stick it in the main site and have it as prominent as the list? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/FreeSWITCH-Mailing-List-Why-not-a-forum-tp4808837p48125... Sent from the freeswitch-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> wrote:
Could we at least make a modification to the FreeSWITCH site to make people aware that these alternatives exist though? Having them hidden at crazy URLs isn't helping anyone. Nabble is supposedly embeddable - can we stick it in the main site and have it as prominent as the list?
You could start a wiki page, if you think it would help, that documents all of the means of accessing the mailing list. You could mention the IRC channel and the FreeSWITCh conference there as well - in short, bring together on one page all of the online fora available for the project. What happens on the main site is up to the FreeSWITCH developers, but a wiki page is open to community contributions.
I'll say this one last thing, and then this thread is closed. This same thread appears every few months on the mailing list, and its always the same content. On multiple occasions people have setup one forum or another, no one reads them, no one responds on them, and they become completely useless, then a few months later, someone else comes around complaining how the forums are useless. If someone is able and willing to do 100% of the work to add embeddable forums that link to our mailing lists and will require no additional work from us on an ongoing basis, feel free to contact me offlist with everything all setup, so I just need to login to the server and run a couple of commands to add it. Mike On Mar 28, 2010, at 6:38 AM, Ben Langfeld wrote:
"If you think there are shortcomings in the current Web interfaces then I'm sure it would be possible to add another on top of the existing mailing list setup."
Ok, so Nabble is a reasonable attempt but it still suffers from quoting issues and a failure to strip off all of the rubbish mailman footers on every post. It doesn't exactly scream minimalist and simple (DHH would have a fit) and that's my issue. For now, though, it will have to do.
Could we at least make a modification to the FreeSWITCH site to make people aware that these alternatives exist though? Having them hidden at crazy URLs isn't helping anyone. Nabble is supposedly embeddable - can we stick it in the main site and have it as prominent as the list? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/FreeSWITCH-Mailing-List-Why-not-a-forum-tp4808837p48125... Sent from the freeswitch-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I think the answer is in the fact that this thread generated 19+ replies. which is more activity that the 2 existing forums have seen in the last 2 years. It's always the same answer as Mike put it, and Andrew in that earlier thread. We need some help to do these things an d unless we do we have to change as few things as possible to avoid overwhelming ourselves. So everyone who is interested, show up Wednesday for the conference call at sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org <sip%3A888@conference.freeswitch.org> and volunteer for some side projects. On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:01 AM, Michael Jerris <mike@jerris.com> wrote:
I'll say this one last thing, and then this thread is closed. This same thread appears every few months on the mailing list, and its always the same content. On multiple occasions people have setup one forum or another, no one reads them, no one responds on them, and they become completely useless, then a few months later, someone else comes around complaining how the forums are useless. If someone is able and willing to do 100% of the work to add embeddable forums that link to our mailing lists and will require no additional work from us on an ongoing basis, feel free to contact me offlist with everything all setup, so I just need to login to the server and run a couple of commands to add it.
Mike
On Mar 28, 2010, at 6:38 AM, Ben Langfeld wrote:
"If you think there are shortcomings in the current Web interfaces then
I'm
sure it would be possible to add another on top of the existing mailing list setup."
Ok, so Nabble is a reasonable attempt but it still suffers from quoting issues and a failure to strip off all of the rubbish mailman footers on every post. It doesn't exactly scream minimalist and simple (DHH would have a fit) and that's my issue. For now, though, it will have to do.
Could we at least make a modification to the FreeSWITCH site to make people aware that these alternatives exist though? Having them hidden at crazy URLs isn't helping anyone. Nabble is supposedly embeddable - can we stick it in the main site and have it as prominent as the list? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/FreeSWITCH-Mailing-List-Why-not-a-forum-tp4808837p48125... Sent from the freeswitch-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________ FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
-- Anthony Minessale II FreeSWITCH http://www.freeswitch.org/ ClueCon http://www.cluecon.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/FreeSWITCH_wire AIM: anthm MSN:anthony_minessale@hotmail.com <MSN%3Aanthony_minessale@hotmail.com> GTALK/JABBER/PAYPAL:anthony.minessale@gmail.com<PAYPAL%3Aanthony.minessale@gmail.com> IRC: irc.freenode.net #freeswitch FreeSWITCH Developer Conference sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org <sip%3A888@conference.freeswitch.org> googletalk:conf+888@conference.freeswitch.org<googletalk%3Aconf%2B888@conference.freeswitch.org> pstn:+19193869900
Has anyone thought about a newsgroup?! --Dave
I think the answer is in the fact that this thread generated 19+ replies. which is more activity that the 2 existing forums have seen in the last 2 years.
It's always the same answer as Mike put it, and Andrew in that earlier thread. We need some help to do these things an d unless we do we have to change as few things as possible to avoid overwhelming ourselves.
So everyone who is interested, show up Wednesday for the conference call at sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org and volunteer for some side projects.
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 4:01 AM, Michael Jerris <mike@jerris.com> wrote: I'll say this one last thing, and then this thread is closed. This same thread appears every few months on the mailing list, and its always the same content. On multiple occasions people have setup one forum or another, no one reads them, no one responds on them, and they become completely useless, then a few months later, someone else comes around complaining how the forums are useless. If someone is able and willing to do 100% of the work to add embeddable forums that link to our mailing lists and will require no additional work from us on an ongoing basis, feel free to contact me offlist with everything all setup, so I just need to login to the server and run a couple of commands to add it.
Mike
On Mar 28, 2010, at 6:38 AM, Ben Langfeld wrote:
> > "If you think there are shortcomings in the current Web interfaces then I'm > sure it would be possible to add another on top of the existing mailing list > setup." > > Ok, so Nabble is a reasonable attempt but it still suffers from quoting > issues and a failure to strip off all of the rubbish mailman footers on > every post. It doesn't exactly scream minimalist and simple (DHH would have > a fit) and that's my issue. For now, though, it will have to do. > > Could we at least make a modification to the FreeSWITCH site to make people > aware that these alternatives exist though? Having them hidden at crazy URLs > isn't helping anyone. Nabble is supposedly embeddable - can we stick it in > the main site and have it as prominent as the list? > -- > View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/FreeSWITCH-Mailing-List-Why-not-a-forum-tp4808837p48125... > Sent from the freeswitch-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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-- Anthony Minessale II
FreeSWITCH http://www.freeswitch.org/ ClueCon http://www.cluecon.com/ Twitter: http://twitter.com/FreeSWITCH_wire
AIM: anthm MSN:anthony_minessale@hotmail.com GTALK/JABBER/PAYPAL:anthony.minessale@gmail.com IRC: irc.freenode.net #freeswitch
FreeSWITCH Developer Conference sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org googletalk:conf+888@conference.freeswitch.org pstn:+19193869900 _______________________________________________ FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
David Knell <dave@3c.co.uk> wrote:
Has anyone thought about a newsgroup?!
nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.telephony.freeswitch.user Unfortunately it seems not to be working properly - the latest posts there are from late 2009 as far as I can tell, whereas it's working fine for other mailing lists that I frequently use. In fact, I often read and post from there instead of subscribing to the lists.
Le Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:24:55 -0500, Anthony Minessale <anthony.minessale@gmail.com> a écrit : May be 1.0.1 HOWTOs should do the trick: the wiki's very good (examples, commented vars, ...) BUT it is difficult to have an overall look at FS for a newbie (like me, even if I've got some experience in asterisk.) From my point of view (may be only mine...), FS looks tremendously powerful, but also terribly hard to understand its basics: info's here but to much atomized - so the outcome may only be a gathering of all these useful info in an *orderly* fashion.
I think the answer is in the fact that this thread generated 19+ replies. which is more activity that the 2 existing forums have seen in the last 2 years.
It's always the same answer as Mike put it, and Andrew in that earlier thread. We need some help to do these things an d unless we do we have to change as few things as possible to avoid overwhelming ourselves.
So everyone who is interested, show up Wednesday for the conference call at sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org <sip%3A888@conference.freeswitch.org> and volunteer for some side projects.
-- All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates. -- Woody Allen
participants (6)
-
Anthony Minessale
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Ben Langfeld
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David Knell
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Jason White
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Jean-Yves F. Barbier
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Michael Jerris