[Freeswitch-users] G.729 license...

Tom Hartnett hartnett.tom at gmail.com
Tue Jan 9 12:38:54 UTC 2018 

> Tom, its just a co-incidence that g729 had a patent and the developers did
> a revenue share with the patent owner. That patent having expired does not
> take away the fact that the FS developers *did* after all develop and
> maintain the commercial g729 mod. The same is the case with other
> commercial mods of FS.
>

Call me skeptical. All other patent-free codecs were added into the main FS
freely, but G.729, the only one with patent restrictions, was kept as an
upgrade as a coincidence?

>
> I am in disagreement with your comment of "G.729 license had value to the
> customers because the patent license was rolled in. It was difficult for
> individual users to get patent licenses." You can build a g729 transcoder
> yourself and the patent holder would accept your $10 per channel easily.
> You needed to contact them and they did respond (well atleast I did for a
> small number of ports for something else that I was working on).
>

That's not so. I went through the process with Sipro. It required large
up-front payments and purchases of thousands of licenses at a time. The FS
team did the community a big service in sub-licensing these. But their
model could not adapt to large needs.  I've still got several thousand (now
worthless) patent licenses bought from Sipro. Anybody want some ? :)

Lastly - yes you will find many functional open source alternatives, but
> are they genuinely free? Who is going to build and manage that into your FS
> eventually? Apologies in advance for the gas bomb.
>

My humble suggestion was for g729 mod to join the rest of the license-free
codecs available in Freeswitch. Honestly I don't have a dog in this fight,
but as someone who once had to solve this problem I just wanted to add my
thoughts.

>
> To save our tigers, save their habitat. Think before you print this email.
> <www.saveourtigers.com>
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Tom Hartnett <hartnett.tom at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Giovanni, I didn't suggest anything like that. The G.729 license had
>> value to the customers because the patent license was rolled in. It was
>> difficult for individual users to get patent licenses. That's not a factor
>> anymore. And as much as we'd all like to support the team, it would be good
>> if what was licensed from them had the same level of value, rather than
>> just copyright on a piece of code that's available for free elsewhere.
>>
>> A license that covers copyright and patents on certain video encoders
>> comes to mind.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Giovanni Maruzzelli <gmaruzz at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8 January 2018 at 15:22, Tom Hartnett <hartnett.tom at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just chiming in here, as we've used G.729 with FS in the past. I fully
>>>> support the core team getting income from licensed premium features, but
>>>> perhaps it's time to let the G.729 thing go. With the patent licenses
>>>> expired, and functional open source alternatives, and G.729 usage waning in
>>>> general, It might be a good time to move it back into the main fold.
>>>> There's lots of other add-ons I can think of that would make great
>>>> "upgrades" the team could license out.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Tom, are you suggesting to let go of an established commercial practice
>>> (which, btw, I suspect don't even pay for the bandwidth people use to
>>> download FreeSWITCH, let alone pay who write the code) and start finding
>>> ways to create semi-necessary "addons" you-cannot-stay-without-if-you-are-serious
>>> and squeeze all FreeSWITCH users ?
>>>
>>> Ugh!
>>>
>>> :D
>>>
>>> -giovanni
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:02 AM, Prashant Lamba <
>>>> prashant.lamba at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This was already discussed on other threads - Although the g729
>>>>> Patent has expired, it does not imply that FS Developers cant charge a
>>>>> license / per port fee. They have developed G729 support and
>>>>> maintaining it.
>>>>>
>>>>> To save our tigers, save their habitat. Think before you print this
>>>>> email. <www.saveourtigers.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:27 AM, Gregor Nanger <gregor at infomedia.si>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would gladly buy licenceses, but g729 mod is not available for
>>>>>> windows :-(
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2018-01-07 20:37 GMT+01:00 Bipin Patel <bipin at xbipin.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I'm also not making money out of it but just to support old or
>>>>>>> slow clients we also need it. In asterisk at least there is that open
>>>>>>> source g729 coded which might not be optimized but at least supporting it
>>>>>>> is better than nothing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On January 7, 2018 8:53:42 PM David Villasmil <
>>>>>>> david.villasmil.work at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't understand, if you don't make money with the service you
>>>>>>>> provide, why would you provide it in the first place? And more important,
>>>>>>>> why would you give out g729 encoding/decoding for free?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might be in the wrong business, if so. Unless we're missing
>>>>>>>> some information, you should just buy the licenses and be done with this
>>>>>>>> discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 7, 2018, 01:58 Brian West <brian at freeswitch.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems everyone confuses copyright with patent
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Michelle Konzack <
>>>>>>>>> linux4michelle at tamay-dogan.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm, the only problem is, that I do not make money with it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Am 2018-01-07 hackte Madovsky in die Tasten:
>>>>>>>>>> > If you make money with 180 users so it's worth
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > to contribute to FreeSWITCH staff too...
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > On 1/6/2018 2:38 PM, Geoff Mina wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >> It is quite expensive non-proprietary functionality for
>>>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>>>> >> larger than a tiny installation.
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> On Jan 6, 2018, at 8:34 AM, Madovsky <infos at madovsky.org
>>>>>>>>>> >> <mailto:infos at madovsky.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> G729 license helps FreeSWITCH core team...
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> On 1/6/2018 7:13 AM, Mirko Brankovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> As far as I know g729 licence expired year ago, and I know
>>>>>>>>>> of 2 open
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> source modules that have it implemented and working ;)
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> On Jan 6, 2018 11:30, "Michelle Konzack"
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> <linux4michelle at tamay-dogan.net
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> <mailto:linux4michelle at tamay-dogan.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Hello *,
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     the promoted G.729 License for 10US is only for one
>>>>>>>>>> concurency
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> call.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     But what about parallel calls?
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     I am in Estonia and we have only 300MBit LTE/4G
>>>>>>>>>> connections here
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     no DSL or similar
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     My VoIP server is currently located in Nürnberg/Germany
>>>>>>>>>> but will
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     relocated to an ISP in Tallinn.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     However, I have 140 users of this VoIP Server and like
>>>>>>>>>> to use a
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     efficient Codec because also some of the users are on
>>>>>>>>>> slow
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> (=<1MBit)
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Satelite connection
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Is it possibel, to use the G.729 Codec only for some
>>>>>>>>>> defined
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> users?
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     This would mean, I need only arround a 15 user licence
>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     of 140.
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Thanks in avance
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Michelle Konzack
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Miila ITSystems @ TDNet
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Estonia
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     00372-54541400 <+372%205454%201400> <tel:00372-54541400
>>>>>>>>>> <+372%205454%201400>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     _____________________________
>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     consulting at freeswitch.org <consulting at freeswitchorg>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:consulting at freeswitch.org>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     http://www.freeswitchsolutionscom
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     <http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> <http://confluence.freeswitchorg>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> <http://confluence.freeswitch.org>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
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>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.free
>>>>>>>>>> switch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     <http://lists.freeswitch.org/
>>>>>>>>>> mailman/options/freeswitch-users>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>     http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-user
>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>>>>> >>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>>>> >>> consulting at freeswitch.org <mailto:consulting at freeswitch.org>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >>> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>> <mailto:FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> <FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitchorg>>
>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>>>>> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>>>>> >> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>>>> >> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>>>>> >> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> >> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>>>>> >> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>>>>>> >> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>>>>> > Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>>>> > consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> > http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>>>>> > http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> > http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> > http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> > FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> > http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>>>>> > UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitchorg/mailman/options/frees
>>>>>>>>>> witch-users
>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Michelle Konzack
>>>>>>>>>> 00372-54541400 <+372%205454%201400>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>>>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sitesnasty
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brian West | General Operations Director
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH Solutions | 17345 Civic Drive #2531 Brookfield, WI
>>>>>>>>> 53045
>>>>>>>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=17345+Civic+Drive+%232531+Brookfield,+WI+53045&entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Email: brian at freeswitch.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mobile: 918-424-9378 <091842%2049378>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Website: https://www.FreeSWITCH.com <https://www.freeswitch.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [image: color-facebook-96.png]
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/freeswitch/>[image:
>>>>>>>>> color-twitter-96.png]
>>>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/freeswitch?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor>
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org <http://confluence.freeswitchorg>
>>>>>>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
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>>>>>>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gregor Nanger
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *CTO*
>>>>>> t./f.: 00386 (0) 7 6000 308/309 • m:. 00386 (0)41 756485
>>>>>> • Infomedia d.o.o. • Jerebova 3, Novo mesto, Slovenia
>>>>>> • www.infomedia.si
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>> _____________
>>>>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>>> switch-users
>>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> _____________
>>>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>>
>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
>>>>> FreeSWITCH-users at lists.freeswitch.org
>>>>> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>>> switch-users
>>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> _____________
>>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>>
>>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>>
>>>> FreeSWITCH-users mailing list
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>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/free
>>>> switch-users
>>>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Giovanni Maruzzelli
>>> OpenTelecom.IT
>>> cell: +39 347 266 56 18
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> _____________
>>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>>
>>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
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>>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________________
>> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
>> consulting at freeswitch.org
>> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>>
>> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>> http://confluence.freeswitch.org
>> http://www.cluecon.com
>>
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>> http://www.freeswitch.org
>>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Professional FreeSWITCH Consulting Services:
> consulting at freeswitch.org
> http://www.freeswitchsolutions.com
>
> Official FreeSWITCH Sites
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> http://www.cluecon.com
>
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