The debate of YAML vs XML and XML vs JSON is not new... Can YAML really replace XML? To be frank, whatever can be done in XML can be done without XML. Do you need XML for XML-RPC? Yes, Is it necessary to use XML for RPC? No. Is it necessary to use XML for RDF? No. Is it necessary to use XML for, anything? No. Is YAML a perfect replacement for XML? No Are there circumstances, YAML may be more suitable than XML. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-matters23.html YAML is designed with scripting languages (such as Python, Perl, PHP, and Ruby, among others) in mind. Using Python to parse YAML PyYAML is designed to be a Python parser. <user id="MyPBX" on="localbox"> <firstname>John</firstname> <lastname>QPublic</lastname> <department>QA</department> <cell>678-255-1185</cell> <address password="xxxx">jqpublic@myaml.com</address> <address password="xxxx">jqpublic@myxml.com</address> </user> Now, contrast this with what I would enter for the YAML file: MyPBX: computer : localbox firstname: John lastname: QPublic cell: 678-255-1185 addresses: - address: jqpublic@example1.com password: xxxxxxxx - address: jqpublic@example2.com password: xxxxxxxx Assuming we created a yaml document, and read the above YAML structure into Python, the resulting structure may look like: {mypbx: {computer: localbox, firstname: John, lastname: QPublic, cell: 678, 255,1212, addresses: [{address: jqpublic@myaml.com, password: xxxxxxxx},{address: jqpublic@myxml.com, password: xxxxxxxx}]} http://www.yaml.org/refcard.html http://yaml4r.sourceforge.net/cookbook/ http://pyyaml.org/ So what about JSON then. is not JSON better than XML, YAML or OGDL? http://scripting.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/scripting-news-for-12202006/ Briefly these do similar things in a different way. JSON works well with Javascript. YAML works without modification in Python and Ruby. XML works with almost every language having xml libraries. OGDL is similar to YAML and seems to now be adopted by JAVA http://ogdl.sourceforge.net/

I like the idea. Translate YAML to XML. Personally I look at YAML and it just doesn't make sense to me. Looks like you can make plenty of mistakes. On Jun 27, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Klaus Teller wrote:

I would think that it would be sufficient to provide parsers (or transformers) that allow people to translate FS artifacts from their favorite representations into XML (e.g. YAML to XML transaltor).

Would that be a solution?

And, at then end of the day, the question will remain: how many people would absolutely need these alternate notations?

Klaus L'Imbecile.

Brian West sip:brian@freeswitch.org

We should put this effort into collaborating on one of the hundred areas I am open and flexible towards! On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:33 AM, EdPimentl <edpimentl@gmail.com> wrote:

Here http://yaml.kwiki.org/index.cgi?XmlYaml http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=21461

E http://koopons.mobi http://mobiquity.ws

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Have you checked out http://wiki.freeswitch.org ? Mike On Jun 27, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Arthur wrote:

I personaly don't see the use of XML as a problem, but I see a lack of documentation about the whole FS project as a problem, because when someone doesn't understand how to manage a FS server he starts blaming to the ugly looking XML files when opened with vi. I went to video.google.com ... there was only 1 video about FS, not a single book on the entire Internet !!!

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Anthony Minessale <anthony.minessale@gmail.com

...

wrote: We should put this effort into collaborating on one of the hundred areas I am open and flexible towards!

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:33 AM, EdPimentl <edpimentl@gmail.com> wrote: Here http://yaml.kwiki.org/index.cgi?XmlYaml http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=21461

E http://koopons.mobi http://mobiquity.ws

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You said: "If XML is the single reason you won't be using FreeSWITCH then by all means stick with Asterisk, because we aren't going to beg you to use FreeSWITCH."

This is sad, you claim that FreeSWITCH is more advanced in terms of features and innovation than Asterisk, but all I see with your attitude is that it's more limited and closed-minded.

Please don't be so quick to judge Brian by this response. Or better yet, please don't be so quick to judge FreeSWITCH by Brian's response. The simple fact of the matter is that FS *is* more advanced than Asterisk, regardless of whether or not the devs are willing or able to swap out XML for YAML.

I'm afraid that I will have to stick with Asterisk, at least they aren't arrogant and closed-minded when you ask for a feature, all I

I wonder what the asterisk devs would say if you asked them to switch the conf files out for YAML files? Let's just say that their response would be something similar to: "Uh... no."

want is a more effective way (for me) to configure FreeSWITCH, this is

Actually, technically, there's nothing preventing someone from writing a script/module/program that would convert YAML to XML, and even doing it on the fly. Can you honestly say that can be done with Asterisk? Even if it could be done it would be much more difficult than doing it with FS. FS has hooks built into it that allow for this kind of flexibility. Tony knew from the get go that not everyone would be willing/able to hand edit all the XML files. So an important decision was made early: make the XML be both human- and machine-readable.

not going to hurt you or steal your freedom, or change the way you do things... it's only going to allow me to do things in the way I'm used to and I like.

This is exactly why I love Free Software & Open Source, because it gives me the freedom to do things exactly the way I want, but I see I wont change your mind... so, good luck with FS.

I don't know if changing Brian's mind is actually relevant anyway. The best thing to do would be to write a parser that converts XML to YAML and YAML to XML and demonstrate the coolness/value/etc. of a YAML-based configuration. If YAML is indeed as great as you feel it is then I'm certain that there will be others who would agree and would be willing to support the effort to make a YAML-based config module/parser/thingy. So let me rephrase Brian's last words: If the XML-based nature of FreeSWITCH is the *only* thing that is preventing you from using it then please consider the possibility that you might be missing out on something very cool and very powerful. You aren't forced to use XML, but it is the easiest of the alternatives, at least at the start. Once you get hooked on FS you'll realize that it's a better choice for a switching platform. The choice certainly is yours, and no one here will begrudge you your right to choose. My parting advice: choose wisely. -MC

Diego

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org>

wrote:

...

Diego, I can already tell you Its not going to happen. The choice was made early on and it was the correct one. It's not something that can be changed or modular. If XML is the single reason you won't be using FreeSWITCH then by all means stick with Asterisk, because we aren't going to beg you to use FreeSWITCH.

Read this for more info http://www.freeswitch.org/node/123

/b

On Jun 26, 2008, at 9:14 PM, Diego Viola wrote:

...

Hi everyone -

I really love this project... I love the design you guys took with FS, I love the stability, the features, the openness of it, it's the VoIP platform I always dreamed of it... FreeSWITCH is what Asterisk should have been.

But I just don't like one thing: XML.

I also don't intend to create a flame war or troll with this thread, please take this as a suggestion of someone that really wants to use FS... XML is the only reason why I still stay with Asterisk, I just can't like XML, and I don't like Asterisk as well, I want FreeSWITCH stability, features, etc, but I can't like XML, not even if I try to, it's too slow to use/write, verbose and complex.

As a sysadmin point of view, I prefer parameter=value but I realize the advantages of XML (data serialization, etc), this is also why I don't use mod_dialplan_asterisk, because I think it's time for something better than INI files, but XML isn't for me, I'm a Linux/UNIX guy and I don't want a GUI either, I love CLI, but I want something simple to use, read and write, and I think YAML is the best of the both worlds.

I would like to have more than one option to configure FreeSWITCH, also, not everyone likes to do the same thing the same way and it would be really cool if FS gives this freedom to people...

I would really like to see YAML as a configuration option in FreeSWITCH, give me this any day and I swear I don't toch Asterisk _ever again_, YAML can be used for data serialization and it's more simple than XML, Ruby projects like Rails uses it.

Take a look here:

http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/ http://yaml.org/

"YAML(tm) (rhymes with "camel") is a human-friendly, cross language, Unicode based data serialization language designed around the common native data types of agile programming languages. It is broadly useful for programming needs ranging from configuration files to Internet messaging to object persistence to data auditing. Together with the Unicode standard for characters, this specification provides all the information necessary to understand YAML Version 1.2 and to create programs that process YAML information. "

Please consider it, I'm also willing to pay for a mod_yaml, other than this I really love FreeSWITCH and I think it's great, I will switch in a heartbeat if you guys add support for it ;-)

Best regards,

Diego

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I hate HTML, XML and all the *MLs, but XML has become de-facto standard whether we like it or not, so I use it now with FS. I don't like but I learnt and use it. You can't be serious that Asterisk/Digium is ok when you ask them for a feature or anything at all? Tony offered them to rewrite obvious broken core to make it better, they said no. I tried 1.4 because of the new features advertised, and I got no sleep beacuse of it for two weeks. What's the point of polishing something that is without any doubt broken in core? I don't understand why are you even looking at FS as an option, if Asterisk is ok for your needs? I don't even want to mention support I get on #freeswitch, compared to bugs.digium.com and #asterisk. The point is that some people aren't ready for compromise, and that is what you are demonstrating right now. Please consider learning XML, it will only do you do good. Regards, Ognjen On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 2:00 AM, Diego Viola <diego.viola@gmail.com> wrote:

Brian,

You said: "If XML is the single reason you won't be using FreeSWITCH then by all means stick with Asterisk, because we aren't going to beg you to use FreeSWITCH."

This is sad, you claim that FreeSWITCH is more advanced in terms of features and innovation than Asterisk, but all I see with your attitude is that it's more limited and closed-minded.

I'm afraid that I will have to stick with Asterisk, at least they aren't arrogant and closed-minded when you ask for a feature, all I want is a more effective way (for me) to configure FreeSWITCH, this is not going to hurt you or steal your freedom, or change the way you do things... it's only going to allow me to do things in the way I'm used to and I like.

This is exactly why I love Free Software & Open Source, because it gives me the freedom to do things exactly the way I want, but I see I wont change your mind... so, good luck with FS.

Diego

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org> wrote:

...

Diego, I can already tell you Its not going to happen. The choice was made early on and it was the correct one. It's not something that can be changed or modular. If XML is the single reason you won't be using FreeSWITCH then by all means stick with Asterisk, because we aren't going to beg you to use FreeSWITCH.

Read this for more info http://www.freeswitch.org/node/123

/b

On Jun 26, 2008, at 9:14 PM, Diego Viola wrote:

...

Hi everyone -

I really love this project... I love the design you guys took with FS, I love the stability, the features, the openness of it, it's the VoIP platform I always dreamed of it... FreeSWITCH is what Asterisk should have been.

But I just don't like one thing: XML.

I also don't intend to create a flame war or troll with this thread, please take this as a suggestion of someone that really wants to use FS... XML is the only reason why I still stay with Asterisk, I just can't like XML, and I don't like Asterisk as well, I want FreeSWITCH stability, features, etc, but I can't like XML, not even if I try to, it's too slow to use/write, verbose and complex.

As a sysadmin point of view, I prefer parameter=value but I realize the advantages of XML (data serialization, etc), this is also why I don't use mod_dialplan_asterisk, because I think it's time for something better than INI files, but XML isn't for me, I'm a Linux/UNIX guy and I don't want a GUI either, I love CLI, but I want something simple to use, read and write, and I think YAML is the best of the both worlds.

I would like to have more than one option to configure FreeSWITCH, also, not everyone likes to do the same thing the same way and it would be really cool if FS gives this freedom to people...

I would really like to see YAML as a configuration option in FreeSWITCH, give me this any day and I swear I don't toch Asterisk _ever again_, YAML can be used for data serialization and it's more simple than XML, Ruby projects like Rails uses it.

Take a look here:

http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/ http://yaml.org/

"YAML™ (rhymes with "camel") is a human-friendly, cross language, Unicode based data serialization language designed around the common native data types of agile programming languages. It is broadly useful for programming needs ranging from configuration files to Internet messaging to object persistence to data auditing. Together with the Unicode standard for characters, this specification provides all the information necessary to understand YAML Version 1.2 and to create programs that process YAML information. "

Please consider it, I'm also willing to pay for a mod_yaml, other than this I really love FreeSWITCH and I think it's great, I will switch in a heartbeat if you guys add support for it ;-)

Best regards,

Diego

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I lol'd. This thread provided much amusement after a long week. =] Sorry for not being more constructive myself but can someone drill the devs for specific reasons (architectural etc) xml is the best solution and wikify the results? If I get a chance I plan on doing exactly that if I have some free time this weekend, don't count on it though. I don't think the point would be to defend the use of XML, rather to document it. I know first hand it's easy to overlook the power/usefulness in the beginning. Anthony Minessale wrote:

Thank you for the suggestion.

I am open to many suggestions about FreeSWITCH but the minimal way we use XML cannot be undone. I am not sure you actually tried FreeSWITCH very much if you think the XML is difficult to work with. Almost every config file that uses xml is still just name value pairs with a small <> around it.

<param name="minimal_xml_usage" value="true"/>

We actually get yelled at by people for not using it more and saying:

<maximum_xml_usage>true</maximum_xml_usage>

What you may be missing is the point of the XML. I suggest you read http://www.freeswitch.org/node/123 for a better explanation and a background.

Really once you learn how the dynamic XML stuff works you will be glad it exists.

I did design res_config for Asterisk which is still there today. Maybe you could get YAML working with a res_config_yaml, I'm sure they would appreciate it .

Whatever you decide, good luck to ya.

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 9:14 PM, Diego Viola <diego.viola@gmail.com <mailto:diego.viola@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi everyone -

I really love this project... I love the design you guys took with FS, I love the stability, the features, the openness of it, it's the VoIP platform I always dreamed of it... FreeSWITCH is what Asterisk should have been.

But I just don't like one thing: XML.

I also don't intend to create a flame war or troll with this thread, please take this as a suggestion of someone that really wants to use FS... XML is the only reason why I still stay with Asterisk, I just can't like XML, and I don't like Asterisk as well, I want FreeSWITCH stability, features, etc, but I can't like XML, not even if I try to, it's too slow to use/write, verbose and complex.

As a sysadmin point of view, I prefer parameter=value but I realize the advantages of XML (data serialization, etc), this is also why I don't use mod_dialplan_asterisk, because I think it's time for something better than INI files, but XML isn't for me, I'm a Linux/UNIX guy and I don't want a GUI either, I love CLI, but I want something simple to use, read and write, and I think YAML is the best of the both worlds.

I would like to have more than one option to configure FreeSWITCH, also, not everyone likes to do the same thing the same way and it would be really cool if FS gives this freedom to people...

I would really like to see YAML as a configuration option in FreeSWITCH, give me this any day and I swear I don't toch Asterisk _ever again_, YAML can be used for data serialization and it's more simple than XML, Ruby projects like Rails uses it.

Take a look here:

http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/ http://yaml.org/

"YAML™ (rhymes with "camel") is a human-friendly, cross language, Unicode based data serialization language designed around the common native data types of agile programming languages. It is broadly useful for programming needs ranging from configuration files to Internet messaging to object persistence to data auditing. Together with the Unicode standard for characters, this specification provides all the information necessary to understand YAML Version 1.2 and to create programs that process YAML information. "

Please consider it, I'm also willing to pay for a mod_yaml, other than this I really love FreeSWITCH and I think it's great, I will switch in a heartbeat if you guys add support for it ;-)