Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum?
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first. I'm convinced that a full shift to newer, better organised and more friendly technology would only be a good thing for the FreeSWITCH project. Does anyone agree, or am I out on my own on this one? Regards, Ben Langfeld Wave > Email On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:11 AM, < freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org> To: "freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org" < freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:54:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There *IS* a forum. A volunteer set it up a few years ago and promised to maintain it. The fact that you can't find it is proof positive that a forum just isn't the best choice for this particular online community. I'd say the nabble site is your best option.
-MC
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:51 AM, William Suffill <william.suffill@gmail.com> wrote:
It's been brought up before. I don't recall exactly all the +/- discussed but there are some alternatives for the user depending on their preference. Digest can get a bit annoying in high volume. The list is archived in various places (Gmane.org, <http://nabble.com>nabble.com)
Nabble does provide a forum style interface to the current list if you rather follow it that way. <http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html> http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html "This forum is an archive for the mailing list: *<freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org* (more options<http://n2.nabble.com/mailing_list/MailingListOptions.jtp?forum=2379917>) Messages posted here will be sent to this mailing list."
-- W
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Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> wrote:
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
Experienced users of mailing lists don't use digest mode. They filter the mailing list into its own mail folder and use features of their mail user agent to read it efficiently, e.g., threaded display. I support to the existence of a Web interface to the mailing list, but I would strongly object to any attempt to replace the list with a "Web forum", for a number of reasons. In particular, if this were to happen, I know that I would find it difficult to participate, perhaps impossible. With a mailing list, I have a choice of software with which to read it, and I have chosen carefully based on my accessibility needs and personal preferences so that I can read and interact with mail efficiently. The problem with a Web forum is that I have no choice: I would have to use a Web-based interface to read and post messages, moreover, a Web interface provided by the forum itself. Unfortunately, Web interfaces can't match my customized mail environment for productivity; some of them are highly inaccessible to people with disabilities, and they don't offer the flexibility of choosing and customizing one's own client software that mailing lists and NNTP newsgroups provide. Web fora are slow and difficult for me to use, at best, and impossible at worst, and I doubt that I am alone here. So, I'm in favour of a Web interface but strongly against anything that wouldn't also allow mailing list participation or offer NNTP access. That is, I'm in favour of diversity and opposed to excluding people by forcing everyone to use a single user interface - one provided by forum software.
I agree pretty strongly with Jason's viewpoint, and for the very same reasons. Not against a web forum, but other options (such as web forum) ought to be additional as opposed to in place of. Mailing lists might be "showing their age", but that's because they work. Procmail + Alpine works great, or an NNTP client is also perfectly fine. For people who want web access, there are web interfaces (like Nabble). ------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:13:59 +1100 From: Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net> Reply-To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.co.uk> wrote:
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
Experienced users of mailing lists don't use digest mode. They filter the mailing list into its own mail folder and use features of their mail user agent to read it efficiently, e.g., threaded display. I support to the existence of a Web interface to the mailing list, but I would strongly object to any attempt to replace the list with a "Web forum", for a number of reasons. In particular, if this were to happen, I know that I would find it difficult to participate, perhaps impossible. With a mailing list, I have a choice of software with which to read it, and I have chosen carefully based on my accessibility needs and personal preferences so that I can read and interact with mail efficiently. The problem with a Web forum is that I have no choice: I would have to use a Web-based interface to read and post messages, moreover, a Web interface provided by the forum itself. Unfortunately, Web interfaces can't match my customized mail environment for productivity; some of them are highly inaccessible to people with disabilities, and they don't offer the flexibility of choosing and customizing one's own client software that mailing lists and NNTP newsgroups provide. Web fora are slow and difficult for me to use, at best, and impossible at worst, and I doubt that I am alone here. So, I'm in favour of a Web interface but strongly against anything that wouldn't also allow mailing list participation or offer NNTP access. That is, I'm in favour of diversity and opposed to excluding people by forcing everyone to use a single user interface - one provided by forum software. _______________________________________________ FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
I agree, but after 2 months iregistered I must to confess that I really like this kind of anarchy. It helps newbies to go quickly in the mood, elite to work their human feels and sometimes fresh energy and ideas can also help the old elite to push some intensity... Regards ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Langfeld To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first. I'm convinced that a full shift to newer, better organised and more friendly technology would only be a good thing for the FreeSWITCH project. Does anyone agree, or am I out on my own on this one? Regards, Ben Langfeld Wave > Email On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:11 AM, <freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org> wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org> To: "freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org" <freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:54:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There *IS* a forum. A volunteer set it up a few years ago and promised to maintain it. The fact that you can't find it is proof positive that a forum just isn't the best choice for this particular online community. I'd say the nabble site is your best option. -MC Sent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:51 AM, William Suffill <william.suffill@gmail.com> wrote: It's been brought up before. I don't recall exactly all the +/- discussed but there are some alternatives for the user depending on their preference. Digest can get a bit annoying in high volume. The list is archived in various places (Gmane.org,nabble.com) Nabble does provide a forum style interface to the current list if you rather follow it that way. http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html "This forum is an archive for the mailing list: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (more options) Messages posted here will be sent to this mailing list." -- W _______________________________________________ FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
There are many folks that are transient in terms of interests as evidenced by the serial nature of their endeavors and defunct projects (although I post occasionally, I prefer to contribute in other ways; e.g. occasional stray payments via paypal, helping users offline, etc.). It does seem that a web forum, whether it is their ease of access or their churn in volunteer moderators or their proprietary software (which becomes a prison for content), generally reduces the quality of the information exchange. Although I believe a better search interface would be a valuable tool to the mailing list as well as a a web-based forum (with RSS support, etc.) for "newbies", most users like the fact that one can use a program or service (Thunderbird, Outlook, Gmail, etc.) that they are comfortable with to perform rather simple searches to watch topics in which they are interested. All without having to worry about some poorly written SQL queries executed by a program running on under powered servers resting in the cloud that you have to go through layers (e.g. advanced search prompts, CAPTCHA, etc.) to do something that should only take a few seconds. What might be most useful is to author a more polished introduction (newbie) guide. Although I don't have the time now to it myself, I would be willing to sponsor (i.e. fund) it so that more people are introduced to FS. -metik Ben Langfeld wrote:
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
I'm convinced that a full shift to newer, better organised and more friendly technology would only be a good thing for the FreeSWITCH project. Does anyone agree, or am I out on my own on this one?
Regards, Ben Langfeld
Wave > Email
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:11 AM, <freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org>> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org <mailto:msc@freeswitch.org>> To: "freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org>" <freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org>> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:54:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There *IS* a forum. A volunteer set it up a few years ago and promised to maintain it. The fact that you can't find it is proof positive that a forum just isn't the best choice for this particular online community. I'd say the nabble site is your best option.
-MC
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:51 AM, William Suffill <william.suffill@gmail.com <mailto:william.suffill@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's been brought up before. I don't recall exactly all the +/- discussed but there are some alternatives for the user depending on their preference. Digest can get a bit annoying in high volume. The list is archived in various places (Gmane.org <http://Gmane.org>,nabble.com <http://nabble.com>)
Nabble does provide a forum style interface to the current list if you rather follow it that way. http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html "This forum is an archive for the mailing list: *freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org>* (more options <http://n2.nabble.com/mailing_list/MailingListOptions.jtp?forum=2379917>) Messages posted here will be sent to this mailing list."
-- W _______________________________________________ FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users http://www.freeswitch.org
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My 2 cents: I love this mailing list. I use gmail which has threading and - even though I don't work on VoIP technologies anymore - I sometime spend some minutes to look at these messages. So refreshing! Ciao, R On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Metik <freeswitch-users-list@metik.com>wrote:
There are many folks that are transient in terms of interests as evidenced by the serial nature of their endeavors and defunct projects (although I post occasionally, I prefer to contribute in other ways; e.g. occasional stray payments via paypal, helping users offline, etc.). It does seem that a web forum, whether it is their ease of access or their churn in volunteer moderators or their proprietary software (which becomes a prison for content), generally reduces the quality of the information exchange. Although I believe a better search interface would be a valuable tool to the mailing list as well as a a web-based forum (with RSS support, etc.) for "newbies", most users like the fact that one can use a program or service (Thunderbird, Outlook, Gmail, etc.) that they are comfortable with to perform rather simple searches to watch topics in which they are interested. All without having to worry about some poorly written SQL queries executed by a program running on under powered servers resting in the cloud that you have to go through layers (e.g. advanced search prompts, CAPTCHA, etc.) to do something that should only take a few seconds.
What might be most useful is to author a more polished introduction (newbie) guide. Although I don't have the time now to it myself, I would be willing to sponsor (i.e. fund) it so that more people are introduced to FS.
-metik
Ben Langfeld wrote:
There may be a forum, but such a thing cannot be expected to succeed if there's competition with an already established list. Such a thing would have to replace the mailing list to succeed. I believe this would help the FreeSWITCH effort amongst newer users and lead to much faster growth. The barrier to entry of a mailing list is a tad too high for some since it presents an impression, justified or not, that the list is where the elite hang out and is off-limits for newbies, whereas with a tidier forum setup that would allow for a "Newbies Corner" might avoid this. Mailing lists are showing their age these days - as demonstrated by the difficulty in responding to this on digest mode - I have to strip away every other thread first.
I'm convinced that a full shift to newer, better organised and more friendly technology would only be a good thing for the FreeSWITCH project. Does anyone agree, or am I out on my own on this one?
Regards, Ben Langfeld
Wave > Email
On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:11 AM, <freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users-request@lists.freeswitch.org>> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org <mailto:msc@freeswitch.org>> To: "freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org>" <freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org>> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 15:54:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] FreeSWITCH Mailing List - Why not a forum? There *IS* a forum. A volunteer set it up a few years ago and promised to maintain it. The fact that you can't find it is proof positive that a forum just isn't the best choice for this particular online community. I'd say the nabble site is your best option.
-MC
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 27, 2010, at 4:51 AM, William Suffill <william.suffill@gmail.com <mailto:william.suffill@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's been brought up before. I don't recall exactly all the +/- discussed but there are some alternatives for the user depending on their preference. Digest can get a bit annoying in high volume. The list is archived in various places (Gmane.org <http://Gmane.org>,nabble.com <http://nabble.com>)
Nabble does provide a forum style interface to the current list if you rather follow it that way. http://n2.nabble.com/freeswitch-users-f2379917.html "This forum is an archive for the mailing list: *freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org>* (more options <
http://n2.nabble.com/mailing_list/MailingListOptions.jtp?forum=2379917>)
Messages posted here will be sent to this mailing list."
-- W _______________________________________________ FreeSWITCH-users mailing list FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org <mailto:FreeSWITCH-users@lists.freeswitch.org> http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users UNSUBSCRIBE:
http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users
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participants (6)
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Ben Langfeld
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Jason White
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Madovsky
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Metik
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Raffaele P. Guidi
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Wellie Chao